Letting Go of the Perfect Self

James Shaheen: Hello and welcome to Tricycle Talks. I’m James Shaheen, editor and publisher of Tricycle: The Buddhist Review. Our guest this episode is South Korea’s famous Zen teacher, Haemin Sunim, who has been dubbed “the Twitter monk.” After his account garnered more than 1 million followers, in 2015 he founded The School of Broken Hearts in Seoul, where he offers both traditional Buddhist instruction and classes designed to help people with the painful parts of life, such as bullying, bereavement, anger management, and dating violence. At the end of 2018, his second book, the international bestseller Love for Imperfect Things: How to Accept Yourself in a World Striving for Perfection, was released in English. All of Haemin Sunim’s efforts are aimed at making the dharma more accessible and relevant to a new generation. We talked about the state of Buddhism in South Korea, why he created The School of Broken Hearts, and how he’s managed to reach a new audience in a country where interest in Buddhism has been on the decline.

James Shaheen: Haemin Sunim, thank you for joining us. 

Haemin Sunim: Oh, thank you for having me. 

James Shaheen: So you really do break the mold for a Zen monk. You are educated at Berkeley, Princeton and Harvard. You have a million Twitter followers to whom you dispense very practical advice. You founded something called The School for Broken Hearts, which helps those struggling in life, which probably includes all of us. So what’s going on here, and how do your fellow monks view all this? 

Haemin Sunim: When I was a college professor up in Massachusetts, it was, you know, after 4pm I would come back to my office, and then I had this sense of longing. I just wanted to communicate with somebody in my own native language, Korean. So I started doing Twitter, you know, and then, at first I didn’t know how to do this, so I just followed how other famous people like President Obama was doing it. They just basically talked about what they had for lunch and whom they met, and things like that. So I first tweeted where I went and whom I had lunch with, things like that. And then I realized this is really, really boring. You know, who would ever be interested in this kind of material? So I started giving stuff that I was able to realize while I was doing a little bit of mindfulness meditations. So I shared those kinds of messages with them, and people began to respond really positively. And then a year later, I went to Seoul while I was doing my postdoc, and I was having a sabbatical. I offered a free meditation psychotherapy-ish retreat every other weekend, and it became really, really popular. People wanted to have their voice heard, so they would share their life story. But in this busy life in Seoul, it’s very difficult to find somebody who’s going to listen to you. So this bringing psychology aspect into spiritual practice, people really love it. And from that experience, I was able to write this book, The Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down. And then that book became really popular in Korea. And then I realized that maybe this is something that I need to do, so I started The School of Broken Hearts.

James Shaheen: OK, why don’t you tell us something about The School of Broken Hearts? What sort of classes do you offer there?

Haemin Sunim: We offer all kinds of classes, like for people who just lost their family members. We have a program for young people struggling to find a job, but they weren’t able to find a good job, so they had a very low self-esteem kind of experience. And we have a program just for that. And we have a program for parents raising a child with disabilities. We have a program for people who originally had lived outside Seoul, now living inside Seoul. So we have a program for that, all kinds of programs.

James Shaheen: So I understand that you do work with some psychologists. Is that right?

Haemin Sunim: Yes, we have fifty psychotherapists and teachers.

James Shaheen: And what would you say that you as a monk might offer that a therapist would not?

Haemin Sunim: I can answer some of the spiritual questions, you know, questions like, “I wonder what happens after we die,” things like that, you know, more spiritual in nature. So that’s one of the characteristics of our school in that it not only offers healing and comforting in psychological courses geared toward healing, but also courses for spiritual practice. So we do offer a mindfulness meditation class, different types of spiritual classes.

James Shaheen: So this all took off very quickly. I mean, how did your life change? I mean, you’re a Zen monk, you’re an academic, you’re teaching in Hampshire College. Within a few short years, you became a household name in Korea, and then you started to experience similar success here in the United States. Did you just go with it? Or was that quite an adjustment for you?

Haemin Sunim: Well, it was something that I never planned or expected. However, I’m very happy that I can actually help people. You know, when I was a college professor, I felt like I couldn’t really talk about the real issues. I was a scholar, so I have to read Song dynasty or Tang dynasty Chinese manuscripts and talk about some very esoteric Buddhist stuff, which only ten people in the whole world will care about. But now I feel like I can actually talk about things that matter to everyday human life.

James Shaheen: Yeah, it’s not often really that a Zen monk communicates with the laity with the sort of casual ease that you do. You went from being a scholar and a Zen monk to relating to people where they were, their everyday lives, and you were offering very practical advice, and you were getting into their lives with them. And you also get very personal and talk about your own life. So an issue like low self-esteem comes up again and again. Why?

Haemin Sunim: Great questions. When I first became a monk, I thought that I would just meditate and become enlightened and—something like that, you know, that was my idea. And then I did do a number of retreats. However, while I was working for my master’s temple, I realized that every Sunday, the parishioners will come. Lay people will come, and after the dharma talk, whatever service we offer, they would love to come to my room and start having tea with me. So as we are having tea, you know, the lay men and lay women in their 40s and 50s and 60s—back then I was only 20-something—they would talk about relationship problems, talk about trouble that they’re having with their children, talk about the failure of their business. Then I realized that as a Buddhist monk, one of my obligations is to cultivate compassion, and then compassion can be cultivated in the midst of everyday life. Some Zen monks prefer to do a lot more meditation and then cultivate compassion. However, I think that it can go the other way around as well. You know, while you are cultivating compassion, this can actually strengthen your wisdom to know your true nature, the emptiness of your inherent self.

James Shaheen: So the name of your most recent book is Love for Imperfect Things. Why do you think so many people struggle with perfectionism? I mean, the point here is that we love people as they are and all of their imperfections. Where we do have a habit of expecting perfection from either ourselves or others, why do you think that is? It seems to be as pervasive in Korea as it is here, right?

Haemin Sunim: I think we all want to be good at something, you know. So there’s nothing wrong trying very hard to be good at something; however, sometimes we tend to set the bar really, really high and almost impossible to reach. And once you do that, then there are inner critics, especially if you’ve grown up in a family where your parents were very critical of you. And then, even though your parents already passed away, you internalized those inner critics always telling you that you are not doing well: “This is wrong,” you know, even though there is no one criticizing you. So I just wanted to say just two things. The first thing is, oftentimes the idea of perfection only lies within your own thoughts. I remember I did a radio program in Korea, just briefly. And then, when I first started, somebody told me that I should speak in a low voice. For men, a low voice sounds much more attractive and believable. So I try to intentionally try to speak in a low voice. However, I had to just keep re-recording again and again, you know, because in my mind, it was not perfect. However, my producer, at some point, he basically said “Sunim, with all due respect, nobody cares.” So I realized that the perfection is only within my mind. Nobody else cares. 

James Shaheen: You’ve also said that your main teacher was imperfect. He had a short temper, for example, but that allowed you to be easier on yourself. Why is that? 

Haemin Sunim: Oh, I really, really love my teacher. He knows that he’s not perfect. Because he knows that he’s not perfect, he can easily forgive other people, and he thinks that mistakes are part of our life. But at first, when I first met my teacher, I thought, “How come he has a hot temper? How come he doesn’t behave like my idea of what a perfect monk should be?” However, as I was getting older and more mature as a Buddhist monk, I realized that the kind of attribute that my master has is very, very valuable, because he’s not perfect. He can actually get along with a lot of other monks. And because of that, our temple has usually seven or eight nuns and monks, and we are living together, which is very special in the United States. 

James Shaheen: So I suppose there could be a danger, on the other hand, in thinking that your teacher is perfect. Do you have anything to say about that?

Haemin Sunim: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I think once we idealize your guru or your teachers, when we are admiring someone, then whatever the characteristics of that person, we aspire to become that person. So for that end, I think guru yoga, you know, that kind of practice works. On the other hand, if your teacher happened to be a really bad person, because this person also has human needs, you know. They are a man or woman before being a monk and nun. So if you just idealize this person, then you will soon become disappointed, and once you become disappointed, there is a chance that you may become bitter and leave the whole practice altogether. That’s very unfortunate. So I think if you are approaching Buddhism or approaching any meditation teacher with a more realistic mindset, then you can aspire to become that great teacher, while if you see some faults in that person, then you realize that that’s his human side. 

James Shaheen: So part of perfectionism, or what goes with it most often, is an abject fear of failure. So you do talk about failure in the book. Can you say something about your own experience with that and the experience of students who come to you with that fear and what the antidote is?

Haemin Sunim: I think if we learn something from any kind of failure, it’s not really a failure. So I would ask myself, what did I learn from this experience of failure? I remember when I finished my graduate school applying to become a professor. I applied to many different places, and then the first school that I really, really wanted to get a job, that school asked me to come and interview. That was my first interview. And of course, because it was my first interview, I didn’t do well. You know, I was just a little bit terrible. And then I realized that one of the reasons why I didn’t do well is because I thought that I just had to do my best without thinking about what they were looking for. So from then onward, I tried to really research what each school is looking for and then tried to show some aspect of me that I can actually accomplish the job they are describing.

James Shaheen: And so when people come to you, what do you tell people who tend to fear failure and find it crippling, the fear? What sort of advice do you give?

Haemin Sunim: My first advice would be just to acknowledge that you have fear, rather than saying, “I’m not afraid.” Just accept it and embrace that you have a fear, and just let it be there, and then take a deep breath. And then what I would do is . . .

James Shaheen: What about telling somebody to just go ahead and fail? 

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, that’s great advice. 

James Shaheen: Yeah, maybe we can trade positions for a moment.

Haemin Sunim: Right, right, just go ahead and fail, and then you’ll learn something. You know, either you go forward and with the feeling of fear, or you trace back and just do nothing, just feel comfortable, you know. But if you go ahead, then you will learn something. That’s when the growth happens, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically. So fear is an opportunity for you to grow.

James Shaheen: One thing that was on my mind when I was reading the book, I mean, it’s very popular in Korea, number one best seller. It’s also quite popular here now. Are you noticing that there are differences in emphasis among your Korean and American students? In other words, are certain questions more commonly asked by Westerners as opposed to Koreans, or is it pretty much across the board the same? Self-esteem, for example? I mean, obviously it’s something that Americans and Westerners in general talk a lot about. Is it the same in Korea?

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, I’m kind of glad that you asked that question because I was just giving a talk in my Buddhist temple in Japan, and actually, this temple is catered mostly for Korean Americans and Korean immigrants. A lot of Korean American kids are asking me, you know, “While I was in my home, I was told to be respectful of my elders and never raise my voice, things like that. But when I graduated from high school, and when I graduated from the university, I found myself in an American society where I have to be vocal, I have to promote myself, and I find it very challenging. How do I go about doing that?” I do get those kinds of questions among the Asian community, how to make this transition from being a very quiet and introverted, meek person and going out into the world and not afraid of dispute, not afraid of—

James Shaheen: Confrontations.

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, confrontations.

James Shaheen: Well, you know, a lot of the advice that you give, you give via Twitter. As I said, you have over a million followers. Some people have begun referring to you as the Twitter monk. Do you ever find your prominent role on the internet to be problematic for you?

Haemin Sunim: Well, if I do it too much, then anything will become problematic, I think. So I don’t spend a lot of time reading other people’s tweets, to be honest, because if I do that, then that will be my full-time job.

James Shaheen: Right.

Haemin Sunim: And also, I learned not to really care too much about how other people think of me, because oftentimes it is their reflections.

James Shaheen: Their projection?

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, projection. Also, if they don’t like certain aspects of me, then oftentimes it is because they have that aspect within. And so we often go to a meeting where some people say negative things about somebody else, but at the end of the day, you realize that that person’s remarks about that person actually reflects more about that person than the person he was criticizing.

James Shaheen: Well, one question I would ask then is, how do you stay plugged in without losing your mind? Because social media can be such a black hole. Do you have any rules that you follow, or do you have a specific time that you go online?

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, I would go on just two or three times a day, one in the morning and then usually in the afternoon, and then I have to do other things.

James Shaheen: OK, listen, since you’re so well known for giving advice, I wonder if you’d mind answering some of the questions that the Tricycle staff have given me. Would you mind? 

Haemin Sunim: Oh, please. 

James Shaheen: OK, these are questions that the people posing them will remain anonymous, but they are from our staff. The first one is: I am a pleaser. The need to please comes from the desire to be a source of strength for others, but it can be exhausting and often leaves me depleted. How can I do both and be a refuge for others without bypassing my own needs?

Haemin Sunim: I think we have first and foremost the obligation to take good care of ourselves. So, you know, I think having the awareness about where my limit is, and then if I am going over the limit, then I think you should learn to say, “No, I’m sorry. I have to go home.” Or, “I’m getting really exhausted. You know, I have already made commitments to many different responsibilities. I’m sorry I cannot do that.” So I think it’s important to say no. Learning to say no is a very important life lesson for that particular person.

James Shaheen: OK, I’ll move on to the next question. I often find myself comparing myself to my peers in all aspects of life behaviorally, professionally, financially, physically, and so forth. More often than not, that tendency to compare ends up with feelings of self-doubt or low self-esteem. There’s that word again. Is there any way to adapt this pattern of self-comparison into something more skillful, or should it be abandoned altogether?

Haemin Sunim: I think one of the good ways to compare yourself is to compare yourself to the person you were a year ago or two years ago. So instead of comparing yourself to somebody else, you would compare yourself to two years ago, three years ago, and then look back at how much you have grown. So I would encourage that kind of comparison, because if you start comparing yourself to other people, even if you become really, really successful, surely there are more successful people, and this is one sure way to feel lousy about yourself. So compare yourself to yourself in the past. And then another piece of advice that I will give is to find meaning and little happiness in your daily life. Like, for example, today it was warmer than yesterday, and then there in the morning, bright, blue sky, and then I was able to have coffee and then listen to my favorite radio stations, and I felt very peaceful and content. Like knowing exactly what matters to you, and then doing the things that make you happy. Focus on that. That’s going to create a sense of well-being. So rather than looking at other people and what they are doing to make themselves happy, I think you can turn that energy to yourself and become more self-aware about what it is that’s going to make you happy.

James Shaheen: You give a lot of familial advice, so this question falls into that category. One of our staff writes, My father is the best dad I could hope to have, but with one notable exception: his attitude toward women. This past year, my family has had conversations about gender and power sparked by the MeToo movement, and they almost always end with my mom and me feeling angry and unheard. I decided to tell my dad personal stories about being sexually harassed, but even that didn’t seem to register with him. How can I communicate with him so that I feel heard? How can I prevent my anger from harming our relationship?

Haemin Sunim: I realized early on that it is very difficult, or nearly impossible, to change our parents. From their eyes, we are just little kids, no matter how much we have learned and studied. So if we are making a lot of effort to change our parents, the end result will be lots of frustrations, unfortunately. But I was touched that you were able to talk about your own personal story experience, and even that if your father responded without compassion and without caring for you, then, I don’t know, maybe rather than trying to change him . . . I think we are all speaking within our own limited experience. So rather than trying to change him, we should try to understand him, where he’s coming from. If I begin to understand him more deeply, then somehow I can live with what it is. But if you do not understand where he is coming from and try to bring where I am coming from, then there will always be some kind of conflict. 

James Shaheen: Doesn’t he have some responsibility to listen to her as well? Sure, she can’t change him and she’s feeling frustrated, but it seems to run a bit deeper than that. This is a really important issue, and it’s her own father. Is this something she must accept, or is there any other approach she might take? 

Haemin Sunim: I agree with you. You know, her father should be more sympathetic in trying to understand what kind of experience she went through. Unfortunately, in this case, you know her father is not doing that. It’s very unfortunate and disheartening, but it’s very difficult for us to change anybody else. We hope that just because we are very close to our family member, we think that we already know our family member, but oftentimes we don’t, especially with our parents. So see where he’s coming from. You know, why does he say those kinds of remarks, hurtful remarks like the way he says? Rather than trying to make him understand my point of view. By understanding where your father is coming from, you may be able to accept the current situation a little bit better.

James Shaheen: Well, a lot of the book is about, as its title indicates, understanding that we’re imperfect, everybody’s imperfect, and to learn to accept, tolerate, love each other despite those imperfections. But aren’t there times when we really should cut off contact with particular people? In this case, it’s her father, so she can’t and it’s not even advisable. But what about a limit to what you can tolerate in this case?

Haemin Sunim: I think we have first a duty to protect ourselves physically and emotionally. So if you are constantly being exposed to any kind of very negative and hurtful situation, then to say, “Enough is enough.” But when it comes to your parents, it’s very tricky, although some people choose not to see their parents, but it’s very difficult. For example, in my book, I talked about my father. I have a very unusual experience with my father, because he doesn’t care about himself, but he cares more about me and my younger brothers. And I just wonder why he’s doing this. You know, how come he had to go to see a doctor, but he refused to go to see a doctor. Then as I tried to learn more about my father, I realized that, while he was growing up, my grandfather paid attention to my father’s older brother, but not to my father. So he felt he’s not important. So he became very used to that kind of feeling. And so when I understood where my father is coming from, there’s a sense of love I felt for him. So if we can try to understand where that person is coming from, although the current situation is very difficult to accept, your heart may become softer. You may find a little more space to allow it.

James Shaheen: OK. One of our staff asks: There are too many things I feel passionate about, so I try to do them all. But then I exhaust myself and become sick. How do I find balance and still pursue everything I want to pursue? If that’s impossible, how do I decide what’s most important? 

Haemin Sunim: I would say make a list. So with the list, see which one has a higher priority. And so I will suggest that you go ahead and then do those things on the top of your list, but while having this awareness that life is actually longer than you think, so you have some time to explore. You don’t have to do everything within this year, you know. So I would just enjoy this path of exploration. So just do it step by step. 

James Shaheen: Well, you yourself are an academic, you’re a Zen priest, you’re a writer, you are active on social media. I think if I’m not mistaken in the book you say: “I look around, I ask myself if I’m doing too much, but I realize that the world isn’t busy; my mind is.” Do you want to say something about that?

Haemin Sunim: Yeah.

James Shaheen: Did I get that right? 

Haemin Sunim: Oh, yes. The world never complained about how busy it is. My mind complains. So we think that the world exists apart from our mind. But if you really practice, cultivate it, then you realize that there is no world apart from your mind. I see a cup here, and the awareness of the cup, it cannot be separated from the object of the cup itself. So if you go deeply, and then you realize that everything that you see and become aware of, it is your mind.

James Shaheen: So here we are hearing the Zen priest offering Buddhist teachings. You don’t have to be a Buddhist to read the book, but you do at certain points sort of tip into the deeper teachings. For instance, the cup does not exist independently in and of itself. So I take it when you give dharma talks, they sound a bit different from the books that you write. Is that correct?

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, depending on the question that I get. So I would love to talk about ultimate nature. These are the kinds of things that I always think about. However, I realized that this is not for everyone. So, you know, I was very happy to be asked by the Tricycle magazine that I will get to offer an online course. I will talk about how to penetrate and become awakened to your true nature. 

James Shaheen: There’s one more question from the staff. I wouldn’t want to neglect it. This person writes: Often when I finish a creative project, I feel a great sense of accomplishment. But by the next day, I already start to feel like I am being unproductive. How can I learn to give myself credit for the work I have already finished?

Haemin Sunim: I think, at some point we have to think about, what’s the point of our existence? You know, is it for just working hard all the time, accomplishing things constantly, or are we here to learn something? Are we here to cultivate compassion and have a deeper relationship with people around us and add to our nature, beautiful nature, or to my own mind? So I would say that you don’t have to accomplish so much work to feel good about yourself. You can give yourself some time off. You can go meet your friends, and this can give you so much happiness. In other words, work is important, but there is more to life than work. 

James Shaheen: So you have quite a range. You talk about common problems that we hear in the context of therapeutic practice—for instance, low self-esteem or fear of failure or perfectionism, these sorts of everyday issues that we face, challenges that we face, and so you’re reaching a lot of people. On the other hand, Buddhism in Korea has been a bit in decline, and half of the population does not affiliate with any one particular religion. So you begin with these very everyday problems. Do you feel in any way that you’re leading people perhaps to the teachings, the sort of teachings that you give at the zendo? 

Haemin Sunim: Yes, absolutely. All of my books start out as more therapeutic and everyday practical advice, but if you just look at later chapters, it ends up being spiritual practice. So, if you’re interested in spiritual practice, you should always read from the last chapter of my book. So hopefully people will become more and more interested in spiritual practice and explore who they are. 

James Shaheen: I noticed that in the book, you begin with those problems that people face on a daily basis. In fact, you very directly address young people. At some point, you tell me your audience is often people in their 40s and 50s. And you’re right, as the book progresses, you go more deeply into the teachings. For instance, just as you spoke about mind is more characteristic of how you are in later chapters. Is it your intention to interest the public once again in Buddhism? 

Haemin Sunim: Absolutely, yes, that’s my skillful means.

James Shaheen: Yeah. What I really appreciate about it is that there is nothing judgmental in the book, really. I mean, you’re willing to meet people where they are. Were you surprised by the success of your books, and were you surprised by your million-plus Twitter followers and your million-plus followers on the Korean version of Facebook? 

Haemin Sunim: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I’m so surprised. I was very surprised. And I realized that people are hungry for a religious or spiritual teacher who’s not afraid of talking about everyday life, everyday problems. I remember when I went to Germany, I had these Christian mystics who felt very disappointed when one of the top authorities of the German Christian church, when a woman asked, “Oh, I just lost my husband, I don’t know what to do,” and then the top leader basically gave a very pedantic, boring theological answer disconnected from reality. So, yeah, I think what people are asking is, “Relate to us, relate to my life. How is it going to benefit my life if you actually practice meditations, for example?”

James Shaheen: OK, well, I think, I think I’ve asked all the questions I have here. Do you have any message for the American audience based on your experience here and your connection with the place that you’d give here but not necessarily in Korea?

Haemin Sunim: I would say that I feel like there are two different camps of American Buddhists. On one hand, they are very devotional. They follow traditional Buddhist rituals and whatnot. For those people, I would say maybe you can include some of the critical aspects of the spirit, you know, and don’t walk into that tradition blindly, and don’t project your inner needs onto your teachers. And another group is they are approaching it with a very practical American sense. I will doubt about this until I see that it actually works. For those people, I would invite that, maybe because Buddhism has been around for thousands of years, maybe because they have something to offer. Have a little bit more faith and trust in their traditions, and maybe follow some of the things that they are asking. You may learn something.

James Shaheen: Well, thank you so much. That’s a great way to wrap up. Haemin Sunim, thank you for joining us.

Haemin Sunim: Thank you so much. Whoever you are, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be peaceful and always be protected.

James Shaheen: You’ve been listening to Haemin Sunim, author of Love for Imperfect Things: How to Accept Yourself in a World Striving for Perfection. Here on Tricycle Talks, we’d love to hear your thoughts about the podcast. Write us at feedback@tricycle.org or leave us a review on your podcast player. Tricycle Talks is produced by Paul Ruest at Argot Studios in New York City. I’m James Shaheen, editor and publisher of Tricycle: The Buddhist Review. Thanks for listening!